Today’s episode of the podcast is a little different. I’ve wanted to talk about the subject for a while, but after the most recent Google algorithm update when so many professional bloggers lost so much traffic literally overnight, I bumped up this topic in my calendar.
Google, Pinterest, Instagram and Facebook can all be great traffic sources for our blogs…but they are also all algorithm-based. So if we’re primarily focusing only on one of those as a traffic source, we might have a lot to lose next time they tweak things.
On my own DIY blog, 47% of my traffic comes from Pinterest, and 37% comes from Google. Now I haven’t done nearly enough to optimize either one on my old blog, and I’ve only posted ONCE in the last 12 months, but that just shows the potential of Pinterest. (And side note: the bounce rate for Pinterest traffic is almost 10% lower than Google traffic.)
So today, in an effort to help you diversify your traffic sources, I brought in a Pinterest expert to share some tips.
Here’s the interview:
Christina:
Today, we have a special guest on the podcast. It is Meagan Williamson, a Pinterest consultant and strategist. One of the reasons I trust Meagan’s advice and wanted to introduce you to her is because she’s an actual Pinterest expert who has been in the industry for years, so she’s not just guessing. Her advice comes from years of experience and continued education. So, I’m so excited to have you on, Meagan.
Meagan:
Thank you, Christina. What a pleasure and what a beautiful intro. Thank you.
Christina:
Oh, you’re welcome. Do you want to give us a little introduction yourself and let us know what you do and who you help?
Meagan:
Sure. Like you said, I have been doing this for quite a while and I do like to share that I come from the different standpoint of starting out as a blogger, so the way that I approached Pinterest, even from day one was very different than a lot of people. I do not have a traditional background in marketing. My educational training and more recent work experience was working in psychology, which actually as I have learned has lots of applications in Pinterest marketing and understanding your ideal customer and what the buyer’s journey is or what the reader’s journey is. And so, I have been helping bloggers and then all the way up to corporate brands with their Pinterest marketing. For over five years, I’ve been working as a consultant.
But in the last three years actually, well when I was pregnant just more than three years ago because I gave birth to my son about, well on the weekend it would be three years this weekend, I decided to start offering Pinterest management services. So from that, like I said, I work with bloggers, I work with E-commerce shop owners all the way up to corporate entities, manage their Pinterest accounts as well as teaching small business owners how to manage their own Pinterest account, so that they can stimulate growth, bring more leads into their wonderful world to help them find their content. And yeah, I feel like I have really been working more closely with small business owners who see the potential with Pinterest marketing, but just aren’t sure how it’s different than other social media platforms.
Christina:
Yeah, that’s so cool because it’s very different from social media platforms.
Meagan:
It really is. It’s funny because I think it does fall underneath the umbrella of social media, but the reality is that it’s much more akin to Google. So, it’s a visual search engine that relies heavily on keywords like Google would, right for SEO, so it relies on keywords, but also is a visual planning platform. So, it uses visual scanning technology to help its users find content that helps solve problems. That’s why actually it’s a match made in heaven for any content creators, or bloggers, or any small business owner that has a strong content marketing plan.
Christina:
Yes, and especially for bloggers who usually have such gorgeous images too. I think it can be such a helpful tool.
Meagan:
Well, and it’s not so much like: “Is there a place for bloggers on Pinterest?”…it IS the place.
It’s just that I think that there is this difference with people who started blogging say like 10, eight, seven, six years ago versus people who have started as content creators or maybe influencers in the space in the last one or two years.
I actually had this conversation with a fellow old school blogger. We started in the time when blogging was actually about the content creation and then social media promotion or marketing came afterwards.
The content came first and then the social media platforms came after. I think that really actually is an advantage because it helps you understand that your content is king. That is the most important thing as a blogger or a business to understand that there is so much value in your content, but social media becomes the channels for which you share or promote that information and those people are on Pinterest. They’re looking. That’s why Pinterest loves content creators and blogs because you are solving people’s problems. You’re providing valuable information, tips, tutorials, things that are going to help them live, aspire, be inspired to do more with their life. And as Pinterest says, they want their users to get off the platform and go live their life and execute all these amazing ideas that you are inspired by on Pinterest.
And so, there’s this new wave of content creators or bloggers who are just discovering Pinterest because they really started, maybe they started being more influential on Instagram and then they thought, it’s an afterthought, “Oh wait, I should start a blog. Oh wait, what are other ways that I can promote my blog or my business?” So, Pinterest often nowadays with newer content creators comes after, which is so funny to me, right, this divide that happens.
Christina:
And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast so quickly here was actually because of the recent Google algorithm change. So many bloggers, especially in food and fashion, get almost all of their traffic from just one source. And for food bloggers, that tends to be Google. They’ll get, sometimes I see 75% from Google and Pinterest is down at 5% crazy.
Meagan:
Crazy.
Christina:
Yeah. So, I really want to help these bloggers to diversify and not have all of their traffic eggs in one basket.
Meagan:
Absolutely. I love that too. I just have to stop you for one second.
The fact that you’re saying diversify just makes my heart sing because I think as a savvy blogger or content creator diversifying your traffic, and that was actually something that was shared by a very large blogger with me about eight years ago, and that’s what I try to drill home with the people I work with as well is how important it is to diversify your traffic.
Christina:
Yes, yes it is. Because if one algorithm changes like Google recently did, you can practically lose everything. So, that’s why I wanted to dive into all these Pinterest questions with you.
Meagan:
Perfect.
Christina:
The first few questions are about optimizing blogs for Pinterest, so what are some of the most important things they can do to optimize their blog posts?
Meagan:
Absolutely. I think a lot of content creators and bloggers already have all the essential ingredients. It’s just sometimes shifting. I would say that one of the most important things is having images on your blog posts. I know that sounds like a no-brainer to most people, especially food or fashion bloggers, but the reality is, is often when people are thinking about visual assets for their blog posts, and newer bloggers, they often are thinking about what’s that shot for Instagram? What’s going to be what I post on my feed?
But the reality is, is that when you think about your blog post, you have to think about your visual assets as vehicles for sharing your messaging, so I always recommend that they have at least five images. Of course, food bloggers are thinking, “Yeah, of course.” But make sure that you have those multi-step images, you have those hero images of the beautiful dish once completed. And then make sure you do detail shots like closeups, wider shots, and think about your portrait or your orientation of your image.
Pinterest loves an aspect ratio of two to three, so make sure that your images are optimized for Pinterest and make them pinnable. That is a no-brainer, but a lot of people don’t always realize that they’re including a lot of images that are landscape orientation, so consider your aspect ratio, which again, Pinterest is an aspect ratio of two to three.
And also, make sure you include what we call a Pinterest graphic, so that is an image with text overlay. So, even if you make a beautiful, decadent, dark chocolate cake put that text overlay on the image that makes it your Pinterest pin or graphic that tells people what it is, what makes it different, is it easy, is it decadent, is it a special birthday recipe, is it quick, all these things that people want to know, or maybe it’s healthy. I’ve seen people who have published recipes and they can rank within a month in the top searches for even things that I would consider to be saturated.
A great example I have is, I was looking up a buttermilk pancake recipe and buttermilk pancakes are nothing new. But, I was interested because I went to Pinterest and one of the top five ranking pins was from a buttermilk pancake recipe that had been published three weeks prior, which I was like, “Yes…she nailed it,” right. Her image was optimized. Her keywords were optimized. And I thought, that’s just proof that you don’t have to, you didn’t have to be using Pinterest for 10 years to be able to benefit from it. This was a blog post that was recent and what would be conceived as a highly saturated area and there she was, right, top five.
Christina:
That’s awesome. And I love those tips about the Pinterest graphic too because a lot of food blogs especially that I’ve seen, the only information that they will put on their Pinterest graphic is the name of the recipe. And I’ve always wondered if that was helpful or not.
Meagan:
Yeah, I think adding that additional, like those call to actions or why is it different, what’s different about your buttermilk pancake? I think the one that I picked, it’s because she said, “fluffy.” That’s my preference. I love fluffy or, and quick, right. I’m a mom. I want recipes to be quick, easy and delicious. And so, thinking about those becoming an expert copywriter really and understanding your people, but this is where really understanding your audience and why would they choose your recipe over somebody else’s is so important.
One thing I want to make sure that people understand is including those different shots and different angles and those process shots, no matter whether it’s fashion, or food, or DIY, the reality is…that sometimes Pinterest chooses the image that you wouldn’t have chosen to go viral, so maybe it’s the before picture, maybe it’s the process picture. People can sometimes surprise you. You don’t want to close that funnel off or exclude people, so make all your images pinnable and include, make sure they’re optimized and include one or two that are Pinterest graphics and you’re doing yourself a huge favor for traffic.
Christina:
In that same vein, a lot of bloggers, especially the food bloggers again, they actually hide the Pinterest graphic, so the visitor can’t see it until they click the Pin It button. Do you recommend that or should it just be visible all the time?
Meagan:
I actually think it should be visible. Here is the thing that the hidden Pinterest graphic, if you want to do multiple Pinterest graphics, I get it. You don’t need five, six, seven Pinterest graphics in a post. But that feature, regular people don’t know about that and regular people are your readers. So, unless you have a super savvy tech savvy person that knows that there is going to be a hidden Pinterest graphic, I think you’re doing yourself a disservice because what people are doing is they’re planning, they’re researching and they’re saving ideas for later. And if you make that Pinterest graphic visible, so maybe put it at the end, right.
I work with a food blogger who we’ve had tremendous success that she puts it right at the end. I worked with a company that’s in the home decor world, but they did a lot of tutorials and what we would do is we’d have a call to action at the very end that would say pin it for later or save this idea for later. It’s not just what you’re pinning but it’s making your website or blog pinnable for other people, so that literally they are promoting your blog while you’re sleeping or busy doing other things, if you make it easy for them. I’m sure you cover this, but people don’t have time. They don’t really need to think about it. So, make it easy for them to share your content and share the content that’s going to go viral.
Christina:
Yes I do talk about that a lot because it’s so important, and it’s free marketing too. And not only is it free, they’re marketing to their friends who already trust them. So, it’s just a really cool thing too.
Meagan:
Absolutely, absolutely. That’s where that snowball effect comes from, right?
Again, this is where not cutting yourself off, so if you only want them to be able to do one pin, one image, you’re closing yourself off to the potential that maybe you chose your favorite image that you thought would do well, but the reality is, it’s the mucky bowl with the cake batter in it that goes viral, right. We all have those stories, the flaw pictures, the grainy gray shot of the before closet before you organized it. People love real on Pinterest. I think, yes, it’s beautiful and aspirational and we all have those gorgeous images we’re aspiring to being, but people also really love real raw, relatable content.
Christina:
Alright, so using Pinterest itself, do you recommend an optimal number of pins each day?
Meagan:
I do. I recommend that, especially people starting out or when you’re just starting to get strategic with your Pinterest marketing, start with 15 pins a day. The reason why is I find that between 10 to 15 is optimal for most people and it really depends on how much content you have. If you have been blogging for years, you could probably share a lot more every day. But, I say start with 15 and see how it goes.
Now, I was just talking with a craft and DIY blogger and we have her set at 26 a day. But, we’re actually going to attempt to decrease her schedule just because we want to see if it will result in some positive growth and it really depends. It’s from account to account. I’ve also seen accounts that share 100 pins a day do very well.
Everybody’s magic number is going to be slightly different, but start with 15 and if you feel like you’re not quite getting the traction you deserve, increase it to 20. If you feel like there is not enough content for you to share 15 high quality pins a day, then decrease it. What you want to make sure is that the pins that you are sharing are high quality, help people solve problems. It depends what niche you’re in, but some people are in very, very niche worlds, so it’s a stretch to share 15 a day. If there is not much out there, then it’s going to be a struggle. Whereas, if you’re in a bigger area like food blogging, there are so many pins out there that you can share, but you just want to make sure that they’re high quality and of assistance to your ideal customer.
Christina:
I always talk about that too, just be helpful. So I was going to ask how long a blogger should spend, but 15 pins would only take a few minutes!
Meagan:
Oh, absolutely. But I think, it depends how strategic you’re being and how much content you have to work with. I would say what I recommend to people who are, work with me closely either in my courses or my membership, is that it should take you about half an hour a week to schedule out high quality content. That’s looking at your tailwind schedule, contributing to tribes, looking at what’s working, scheduling out your content, getting in there and doing some manual pinning, looking at trends. It should only take you about half an hour a week once you’re comfortable.
But it depends, right? Somebody who is going to scrutinize every pin, it’s going to take you four times longer. You know your ideal audience. I think it’s a confidence thing, right. So, if you know who your people are, you know what they’re going to like. But, if you’re still confused about that and if you’re a worrier, it will tend to take longer. But, once you have that confidence of what is helping your people, it should… even 20 minutes a week is plenty.
Christina:
Should bloggers pin just all kinds of things, or should they stick to things within their niche?
Meagan:
It’s a great question. So, what I tell people is what you want to do is, of course your number one focus should be on content related to your niche. And what I tell people to do is to think about your ideal customers. What are things that they’re interested in, so we call those affinity interests. I would say you don’t want to go 10 steps away. So, if you’re a food blogger, do you need a fashion board? I don’t know. But, if it’s part of what you talk about online or if it’s part of who you are as a person, I think it’s of assistance. I try to recommend, in most cases, that people have one or two boards that humanize them. You know, if you do have an interest in fashion, but you’re a food blogger, it’s totally okay to have a fashion board if it’s part of who you are.
I’m a great example myself. I love DIY, I love home inspiration, but I also teach marketing and social media marketing, things related to blogging, small business tips. My account on Pinterest has a whole smorgasbord of DIY food. I have tons of food because that’s who I am.
So, in the same way that on your Instagram account you might talk predominantly about fashion and beauty, but the reality is, is that in your Instagram Stories you probably share when you go on vacation. You probably share things that you have around your home. You might share things about your pets because those things humanize you and make you a fuller person that makes your ideal customer connect with you and get a little bit more about your life, and Pinterest is the same. You don’t want to be this robotic, non-entity like, nobody knows who’s actually behind the blog. Those types of blogs that may have been more successful 10 years ago, but people want to know who you are. So it’s okay to have outside the niche. I would just make sure that it doesn’t take over your account.
Christina:
So how about pinning things from your own blog versus other people’s content? Is there a percentage they should aim for or just a certain number?
Meagan:
Yeah, well, this is so dependent on how much content you have, how much time you have. I would say that Pinterest favors high quality content and they also favor new content. So the difficulty is, is that if somebody is listening and they have a new blog or a new business blog, you’re not going to have as much content. So in that case, you’re going to not be able to share as much of your own content.
Now, if you’ve been blogging for years, you have hundreds of blog posts. So somebody who has tons of their own content, like some of my clients have been blogging for almost 10 years, we have thousands of pins to share or blog posts and then per blog post we have several pins, so in their case, we can go up as high as 60% their own content. When people are just starting out, I would say aim for 20% your own, 80 other if you have very limited content. But, what you want to make sure is that you are curating a feed that’s helpful to your ideal customer. That should be your number one importance.
But if you don’t have much to work with, you have to be careful. You can’t just share your own content, especially if you only have a few pieces because then you’ll get flagged for repetitive pinning. So, it’s this fine balance of edging up the proportion of how much of your own content you can share without being spammy or repetitive. So, whatever is going to result in a positive user experience is what you should be doing. But, as you diversify your content and have more images, you can edge it up. There is one blogger I know who shares like 98% their own content.
Christina:
Wow!
Meagan:
Because they’ve been blogging for 10 years. They publish, I think three to four blog posts a week and every blog post has like 10 images, so they don’t need to share that much other content. But, that’s a very unusual circumstance.
Christina:
That’s a lot of posting.
Meagan:
It is a lot, and years and years and years of seasonal content and evergreen content. I don’t think most people are in that position. So, I think that you need to be strategic and look at as you build up your content library or your resources that you edge up how much of your own content you can share as long as it’s high quality and relevant to people.
Christina:
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, there has been a lot of talk lately about group boards not being effective anymore. Are they still a good place to invest in?
Meagan:
Oh, this is such a sticky point, Christina. So, I’ve always disliked group boards.
Three years ago, I acknowledged that they were a necessary evil. I stand by the fact that Pinterest does not like them. And the reason why they don’t like them, but they won’t totally do away with them, one, content creators love them and rely on them. But, I think Pinterest doesn’t like them because it feels like you’re trying to trick people. And I know from everything that I read and all the presentations I’ve been to, Pinterest’s number one focus is the end user’s experience. So, in the terms of a group board, it’s like a gaming thing, it’s like a pod, right. That words like here, let’s scratch each other’s backs, which isn’t a bad thing, we all need to help each other.
But, the problem with group boards is that they often aren’t very helpful to regular people, so Pinterest does not like showing them for a while. They weren’t showing them in search. Sometimes they disappear, sometimes they come back. Currently, group boards do show up in search when you search, when you specify that you want to see boards. Otherwise, they will not show your group board to anybody. So, I recommend to the people that I work with do not rely on group boards, do not spend hours searching out group boards because they aren’t as effective as they used to be. Those days are long gone, but they still are helpful. So, if you have friends that have group boards, or if there is a group board that you see that looks like it has high quality content ask to join it.
What I would recommend is that people instead divert their energy towards finding really high quality tailwind tribes. Tailwind, I mentioned it earlier, but is a Pinterest scheduling app that has API with Pinterest. So, everything they do is above board with Pinterest and you’re not going to get in trouble. Put your energy towards Tailwind tribes. And the reason why I suggest that is because Tailwind tribes are essentially group boards out of the public eye, so they’re in secret. So, then they don’t result in any negative or confusing experience for the Pinterest user.
Christina:
So once bloggers start implementing all these tips that you’ve just given us, do you have any advice on how they can do a self audit to tell what’s working for them and what’s not?
Meagan:
Sure. The types of things that I teach is know your numbers. I think you need to understand your data, so that you can really critically assess where your return is coming from. And this is not just true for Pinterest, but all social media efforts and Google and to see what’s working, so really understanding your Google analytics account as well as your Pinterest analytics.
So, the top numbers that you should be looking at, especially as a food, or fashion, or DIY blogger is looking at your direct traffic or link clicks is the terminology that Pinterest uses. Now, in your Google analytics dashboard that would be number of users coming from Pinterest, or maybe if you have ads on your blog, it would be your page views coming from Pinterest. So you want to have a metric or several metric touchpoints, so link clicks, page views, number of users coming from Pinterest.
What is your strategy resulting in? Are you seeing growth month over month? So, in the month of November you had 500 people come from Pinterest and then you implemented a strategy and then you saw that you had 650, so that’s positive growth. Another metric that people want to look at, and what I often see is when you first start implementing a Pinterest strategy is that you’re going to see an uptick in the number of saves of your content. And then the number of people who are seeing your content. So, those are the two metrics that always occur first. You only have access to those in your Pinterest analytics dashboard.
So, saves is an indicator of content health because it’s a planning platform. Saves means that people are seeing your content and saying, “Yeah, I want to reference this later. I want to make that. I want to wear that. I want to buy that. I want to learn how to make that thing,” or “I love that living room.” And so it means that, it’s resonating with them and they want to save it and then it gets saved to one of their boards and then all their people see it. And this is where you see this huge uptick and being able to reach a high volume of people for free on Pinterest.
The next thing is content impressions or reach. And that means more and more people are seeing your content. So if you optimize your images and you utilize Pinterest keywords, what you’re doing is you’re helping Pinterest identify what your content is about and then they will begin to show it to their users, if you’re creating high quality content. First, you see people seeing your content, then you see people engaging with it and then the traffic follows. So, don’t be discouraged if in the first month or two traffic is not growing as much as you would like as long as you see growth with your content impressions and saves.
So really, when people are thinking about reviewing their what’s working, what’s not, I would say look at those metrics as well as do a deep dive into what images are resonating with people, so what’s driving traffic? And then think about how you could rinse and repeat. Was there a particular pin style? Was it a particular style of text overlay? And try to figure out how you can repeat that while being valuable to people.
Christina:
That’s so great. It all sounds so doable.
Meagan:
It is very doable. And you know what? The more you see the return of your investment, the more exciting it is. I still get excited looking at my content and testing out. I’m constantly testing out new graphics and images and fonts and color combinations to see what resonates with my people. And I think this is what’s really difficult is that people approach me and they want a one size fits all. They want a magic pill, okay. Like, I do this one thing and then I’m going to have explosive growth. Anyone who sells you that is not being honest and probably actually doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
I’ve worked with hundreds of people. I’ve seen behind the curtains of large corporate accounts, small businesses, bloggers, solopreneurs and that’s really what I bring to the table is that I don’t… When I talk about something that works, it’s worked for so many people. It’s not something that just worked for me. People might say, “Yeah, it worked for you, but I’m not you,” right. And, “You’ve been blogging for years,” or you’ve been doing this, you’ve been doing that. You can do it too, but you have to understand that there is going to be small tweaks that every single business owner or blogger is going to make to ensure that they’re, it works for them.
So, it being critical, looking at your strategy and knowing you know what your strengths are and positioning yourself as an expert in the thing that you teach about, or the content that you share about goes a really long way. And having those constant refinement, right, constantly improving and trying to reach more people. And you’ll see within three months you can see what’s working and what’s not, and then it gets addictive. You start making more pin images. You start using different keywords. And it’s just so cool because the deeper you go, the deeper you understand your ideal reader or customer on Pinterest, and that’s really exciting.
Christina:
It is. And then the growth is just fantastic, especially for under an hour a week. That’s just the coolest thing.
Meagan:
It is. It is. And I think that’s what I see people that work with me closely is that there is a mindset shift because a lot of people who are newer to the online world, and being online there is this real focus on being on Instagram, being on Facebook, maybe having a YouTube channel. We don’t own those things. That’s why a website and blog is so important. And you have to understand that you want to own where your main messaging is. Pinterest is not different than other… Things change there. You don’t own Pinterest. And that’s why diversifying, going back to how we started this conversation, diversifying is so important and also owning your content and being the house, right.
All these things are channels for reaching your ideal customer. You really have to understand that and know that this mindset shift of understanding the power of your own content and that when you’re creating high value content, the people will come.
Christina:
Okay. So, even though it only takes less than an hour probably for these bloggers, some of them still might not want to do it themselves. They might just want to hire it out, and so you have some services you offer. Did you want to talk about those?
Meagan:
Well, I do. The place where I started is doing Pinterest consulting and management services. So, I do offer one-off custom strategy sessions where I do a deep dive into, often it’s bloggers or small business owners, I’ll do a deep dive into their business and their account. And then we come up with a custom strategy as well as a roadmap for how to execute that. That’s a one-time fee. It includes a video and us chatting and reviewing an email correspondence.
But then, I also offer management services, so each month I have a select few businesses that I start working with. I always have a wait list because it’s important to me to only take on people who are a good fit for my services. And that’s something you learn over time. That the people have a content strategy. They’re committed to blogging and committed to optimizing their content for the platform, so that I can produce the results that they want to need for their business. So, I do have a roster of clients who I represent on Pinterest, so I run all their Pinterest marketing. They just focus on creating the content and then I focus on making sure that they’re in the right places at the right time.
But over the years, again and again and again, people kept saying to me, “Meagan, we really want to work with you or we love you, but you know, I’m not making enough money to be able to hire you each month to run my Pinterest account. How else can I work with you?” I think before, I wasn’t quite sure how to put out a course without it becoming outdated, so actually this time last year, I put together a Pinterest membership. What it is, is it’s geared at people much actually like bloggers, people who understand the value of their content, understand Pinterest. So, they probably have a Pinterest account, but just aren’t sure how to get strategic. So, I would say not newbie, not beginners to Pinterest, but have that bit of experience, but really need help in how to understand how to use their time wisely on Pinterest.
So, I have my Pinterest membership, which is a low-priced monthly subscription. It’s ideal for bloggers. I have tons of bloggers in there who just need that extra bit and then they have access to me to ask custom questions. And I find that people love that service because it allows them to have ongoing contact with me without the costs of monthly management.
We have a high touch service, right. I employ a small team of stay at home moms who work with me to execute the Pinterest management and so that we can help our clients. But the reality is, is that’s not always sustainable or affordable for people long term, especially, it’s a changing climate out there. We have to be in a lot of places all at once. And so, that’s why I rolled out the membership, so that people could feel that they could work closely with me without having to pay lot of money.
Christina:
Yeah, it’s such a good idea! People can reach out to you on your website?
Meagan:
I can be found at meaganwilliamson.com. My Pinterest membership is pinpotential.com. And then if you want to catch daily tips and bits of information, they can find me on Instagram @MeaganAWilliamson. That’s where I share day-to-day tips and advice and bits of information. My email list is really where I share the most information and provide more direction and support to people on a weekly basis.
Thank you again to Meagan! And of course, if you would like to save all of this for later…
Pin this post! 😉
(And to help your blogging friends out too.)
menty
interesting interview! and yes, I’m working hard on Pinterest, 2020’s new goal is going to take some course of Pinterest, and try to invest in it and using it better!
but it’s true, I still feel, all in all, the content itself should come to the first place